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Post by Darryl Strawberry on Jul 29, 2006 21:31:41 GMT -5
Manny Ramirez-
2 years
7 MIL per year
Incentives-
1 MIL for .300 BA away
1 MIL for 40 HR's
This is the offer I sent in for Manny Ramirez, it is almost exactly the same as the recent signing of Jason Giambi. Manny Ramirez has hit, outside of Coors(away games and last season) over the last 2 years,-
.262, .366, .439
and his fielding% this year is .969, a slight improvement from his fielding% last season.
My response to that offer is that the soon to be 35 year old, declining Manny Ramirez, wants to be guarentteed the starter in each line-up, and doesn't want to take a huge paycut.
He has had very similar production to Jason Giambi over the last 2 seasons, even if you INCLUDE the numbers he has put up at Home this season.
The last 2 seasons-
Jason Giambi- .273, .404, .478
Giambi- 11 Errors, 2664 TC's at 1st base(.996 fielding%)
Manny Ramirez- .268, .374, .471
Manny- 15 errors, 375 TC's in LF(.958 fielding%)
Ok yes 1st base and LF are 2 different positions, but clearly Manny is a defensive liabilty, and not greatly productive outside of Coors field. His last 2 seasons have not been worth 10+ MIL, and prob. not even worth the 7 MIL I offered with him aging and declining.
Manny hasn't hit 40 HR's ever in the sim, and he has struck out 100+ times every year of the sim, and is on pace to do so again this year. He is still a productive player, and thats why I offered him 7 MIL per year, but he is not close to the player he was 3 seasons ago, and doesn't deserve even half of what he was making before.
In a full season outside of Coors his numbers would look like this-
.275, .366, .441 with 600 AB's, 165 Hits, 27 2B's, 24 HR's, 118 K's, 86 BB's.
His vitals are supposed to be
.349, .449, .627 with 600 AB's, 209 Hits, 39 2B's, 42 HR's, 94 K's, 106 BB's
His current numbers show he is depleting terrible, his numbers in Coors aren't even close to his vitals. He is not the same player, he is old, he is slow, has a bad arm, bad range and his fielding% has gotten even worse. Forcing me to give him a guarentteed starting job, and any more money is ludicris. The deal he was offered was equal to the deal Jason Giambi signed, who is performing better than Manny over the last 2 and actually throughout the entire sim.
I don't think SEA did this for any other reason then maybe a brain fart, but he is not pulling off of this, so I do want a committee put on this.
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Post by Darryl Strawberry on Jul 30, 2006 16:11:36 GMT -5
bump for committee
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Post by Edgar Martinez on Jul 30, 2006 16:31:01 GMT -5
Well I'll keep this short because I'm not gonna post a huge thing over this. Manny is having a pretty good year, a definite bounce back from last season when he was on two underachieving teams. I took in consideration yes he's not gonna put up huge numbers but he still puts up good numbers. I also took in consideration he had a huge contract beforehand and for him to take a huge pay cut is unfair to him. I sent back to Jad saying he wants more money (meaning either a little more per year or a SB). He's doing pretty good and is holding his own as a #8 hitter( I could complain about that but its meaningless except for RBI chances). Also when I counter I request a guarantee that he's a starter to make sure he doesn't get put on the bench to rot. Btw a .969 FLD for an OF is pretty good, if it was .920 then yes thats a defensive liability. Whatever the committee decides is fine with me, I'm just getting what I believe is a fair contract for the players.
As a side note Colorado still has 2 more offer chances on Manny.
Also if the committee decides this is fair, I also need to work something within the contract that guarantees manny will be a starter in all lineups as that was part of the reason for me to reject the offer.
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Post by Darryl Strawberry on Jul 30, 2006 19:14:02 GMT -5
yes I do still have 2 more offers on Manny... but I believe 7 MIL is more than enough for a player who is gonna give me below avg. stats anywhere but at home, and while at home give me below avg. stats for Coors. I don't believe that just because I have 3 offers that I should have to use them, the offer is more than fair, and to say .969 fielding% is pretty good for any position is ludicris, every position goes by errors and total chances, OF'ers get less total chances, so he has less errors, but he also has terrible range and a terrible arm and is slow, therefore he IS a liabilty. Actual stats don't show range and arm, but to look at his arm in the manager it is obvious he is a defensive liabilty.
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Post by Cal Ripken Jr. on Jul 30, 2006 21:16:07 GMT -5
*edited*
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Post by Jose Canseco on Aug 3, 2006 0:15:30 GMT -5
im only postin in this since COL posted in a thread about me....going to keep my opinion close to my chest incase im on the TC...
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Post by Darryl Strawberry on Aug 6, 2006 11:44:55 GMT -5
come on Mike, this is getting ridiculous, are you purposely waiting until the trade deadline has passed so that I can't trade Manny if the offer is turned down? o wait if we keep skippin Sat. sims the trade deadline will never come, never mind. Come on Mike whats going on?
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Post by Jose Canseco on Aug 6, 2006 13:59:37 GMT -5
figured Id wait until after I posted all my shit talk to COL before I agreed here...whats going on mike...do we really need to get another GM to sim for you....seems like the summertime is killer for you...which is understandable more shit goes down in the better weather....better parties...softball...cook-outs...
let everyone know that our time posting shit in here isnt worthless...thanks man
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Post by Bill Stoneman on Aug 6, 2006 22:36:26 GMT -5
I'll have a committee set in a few minutes.
As for sims, I ended up working yesterday and have worked 80 hours over the past 7 days, and I'll probably doing it again this week. I rarely work saturdays but yesterday was one, and that's after I worked from 4 AM thursday through 5 PM Friday almost solid (took a 4 hour nap in between, didn't even come home), so when I got home yesterday I passed out until much later in the night..pretty much unplanned.
And since I get paid to work, and don't get paid for the league, and have some big things I've paid for recently and am buying a new car soon, that's pretty much what I have to do.
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Post by Bill Stoneman on Aug 6, 2006 23:20:08 GMT -5
Here's the Committee
1. NYM
2. ATL
3. CHC
4. TOR
5. Cleveland(Tie Breaker)
If both sides want to restate their arguments in a new post within the next 24 hours, they may do that, since it'll be easier than reading the whole thread for most. After 24 hours, please begin voting.
Any unneccessary posts will be deleted and fines are possible. NO POSTING once the committe has posted its decision.
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Post by Darryl Strawberry on Aug 7, 2006 13:15:09 GMT -5
I'll have a committee set in a few minutes. As for sims, I ended up working yesterday and have worked 80 hours over the past 7 days, and I'll probably doing it again this week. I rarely work saturdays but yesterday was one, and that's after I worked from 4 AM thursday through 5 PM Friday almost solid (took a 4 hour nap in between, didn't even come home), so when I got home yesterday I passed out until much later in the night..pretty much unplanned. And since I get paid to work, and don't get paid for the league, and have some big things I've paid for recently and am buying a new car soon, that's pretty much what I have to do. THANK YOU, thats all we needed to hear, alot better than just saying nothing. that took what 1 minute? haha |
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Post by Darryl Strawberry on Aug 7, 2006 13:29:50 GMT -5
ok here is my post for the committee to hear-
Manny Ramirez last season-
.248, .366, .436
Fielding%- .955
Manny Ramirez this season outside of Coors field-
.274, .366, .449
Fielding%- .969
I was told he didn't want to take a huge paycut from the 20 MIL that he is making this season.
When he signed the contract for 20 MIL his production was-
.349, .442, .647
and
.351, .457, .697
his production has dropped tremendously. He is not the monster he once was, and right now he is barely good enough to make a starting line-up.
Jason Giambi who signed that exact deal for the NYY's, has had better production over the last 2 years than Manny, and was making 18 MIL this season. He is still productive, but not since when is a .366 OBP and .449 SLG% (.815 OPS) worth more than 7 MIL per year? and that is what any other team that would sign him in FA would get.
When offering this contract, I went to the most closely comparible Hitter that has signed, and Giambi was a perfect match, same starting salary, better production, almost exact same age. Manny SHOULD have signed this contract, and the excuse that he didn't want to take a huge paycut is BS because his production has taken a big cut so why shouldn't his pay?
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Post by Edgar Martinez on Aug 7, 2006 15:10:30 GMT -5
just copy/paste
Well I'll keep this short because I'm not gonna post a huge thing over this. Manny is having a pretty good year, a definite bounce back from last season when he was on two underachieving teams. I took in consideration yes he's not gonna put up huge numbers but he still puts up good numbers. I also took in consideration he had a huge contract beforehand and for him to take a huge pay cut is unfair to him. I sent back to Jad saying he wants more money (meaning either a little more per year or a SB). He's doing pretty good and is holding his own as a #8 hitter( I could complain about that but its meaningless except for RBI chances). Also when I counter I request a guarantee that he's a starter to make sure he doesn't get put on the bench to rot. Btw a .969 FLD for an OF is pretty good, if it was .920 then yes thats a defensive liability. Whatever the committee decides is fine with me, I'm just getting what I believe is a fair contract for the players.
Also if the committee decides this is fair, I also need to work something within the contract that guarantees manny will be a starter in all lineups as that was part of the reason for me to reject the offer
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Post by Mike Rizzo on Aug 7, 2006 17:12:34 GMT -5
as the agent who negotiated the "similar" deal with giambi (1st offer and was accepted), i think that manny's contract offer was fair.
Manny Ramirez-
2 years
7 MIL per year
Incentives-
1 MIL for .300 BA away
1 MIL for 40 HR's
NYM votes in favor of COL
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Post by Dirk Nowitzki on Aug 7, 2006 17:58:05 GMT -5
In re Manny Ramirez
Once again, we come to the season of overreaching agents rejecting wholly reasonable contracts. Once again, it is time when people who don’t know better start acting like Scott Boras and requesting outrageous contracts for old, and declining players (or in other cases young and unproven). In this case we have a reasonable offer and an unreasonable agent trying to extort more money in spite of performance and comparables. Once again, it is time to put the naughty agents in their place and to tell them to stop being douche bags. Cf. Toronto and the New York Mets who are completely reasonable.
A.
The offers. Colorado is offering Manny Ramirez two years at seven million per year with performance goals of one million if he hits .300 and another million if he hits 40 homeruns. The Agent is insulted! He wants more money and a guaranteed starting spot. (This will be dealt with later in exhaustive detail).
B.
The performance. Mr. Ramirez is, well, just not as good as he once was. Back in his heyday he was a baseball rock superstar. Now, he is lucky if he has any groupies, much less a white groupie. Not counting this season and the season before, Mr. Ramirez was a consistent .310/.410/.550+ hitter (that is at least that much for you in Rio Linda) putting up 30 plus homeruns. But unfortunately, Father Time has reared his ugly head. This season and last Mr. Ramirez has been way below those numbers. He has dropped off, and that is in the rarified air of Piss Water Coors Field. However, he is still giving his team decent performance. That is his bat. His defense is below average as well.
C.
The previous Chedda. Before this most recent round of contract talks, Mr. Ramirez was earning $20,796,000 for an undetermined number of years. That is an assload of cash my friends. That can buy a brother some stuff. He has got his.
D.
The Arguments. Colorado argues that because of his decline and performance and comparables he should get the $7 million. The unreasonable agent is asking for more money because well, “it’s unfair.” Ummm, sure.
E.
The Decision. The question which must be asked is, What Would the IRS and federal government want. Well that is obvious, they want the more money as it would increase the federal coffers, and thus, we say they can’t have it. The reason is, well, “it’s unfair” to them so that is what we will do. Really, it is because the offer is in line with comparables, is in line with performance, and with the continued decline expected it is completely unreasonable for Mr. Ramirez to get a contract larger than what was offered. If he meets his performance goals, he could make up to $9,000,000. That is plenty. He isn’t going to go hungry on that. Though, I am sure that he could ask Latrell Sprewell how much it you need before you go hungry and base future offers off of that.
F.
In Sum. The offer of Colorado of two years, seven million per plus performance goals is accepted. The hand of the agent is thusly hit on the hand with a ruler with the league commissioner saying, “bad agent, bad agent.”
A Note on a Guaranteed Starting position
The Agent wrote on the message board, “Also if the committee decides this is fair, I also need to work something within the contract that guarantees manny (sic) will be a starter in all lineups as that was part of the reason for me to reject the offer.” Well, all I can say to that is a big fat no. This is an acceptance of the offer on the table. The offer says nothing about a guaranteed starting position so thus it is not under consideration in this matter. Once the votes come in and they vote on the side of the Colorado this thing is done, final, finished. You cannot add in terms to the contract after this.
I would further like to add a little bit on this in general. Guaranteed Starting positions are stupid. These players want to play for a winner. If they aren’t performing, they should want to be on the bench as to have a better chance to win. These contracts are guaranteed to some extent and thus they are going to get paid. Further more, they give no consideration (money) to the teams for this right. In a negotiation, they should give up something for this right. (See e.g., agent offers 1/11 and the team responds 1/10 with a guaranteed starter) The players should pay for this right. Finally, you can add in guaranteed starting clauses but under general contract law principle’s and the Uniform Commercial Code nothing can be done against the breaching party in this instance. See Atlanta GC response in Seattle Breach of Contract thread.
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Post by Doug Melvin on Aug 7, 2006 21:22:35 GMT -5
But in defense of the Agent...A player is allowed to accept/reject an offer with incentives...I have had one of my players ask for a guarenteed starting spot. I think that is a very valid reason, which was in the Agents decision, to reject the offer. That must be taken into consideration. The money, I agree, is plenty fair. But if the player wants to be a Starter, he could choose to walk. Plus, I think he could get more money and a starting spot on a few teams out there in FA.
Unfortunatly, I have no say...But I hope the others see those points and go the way of the agent.
[glow=red,2,300]AND REMEMBER...This was COL 1ST OFFER!! We shouldn't even have this discussion right now until those other offers are made!![/glow]
PS...I will not be attempting to sign Manny either, so I have no reason to want him to become a FA.
PPS...This is one reason I HATE THIS RULE!
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Post by Jim Hendry on Aug 8, 2006 9:34:55 GMT -5
I vote in favor of the agent.
1. As MIL said, COL had the chance to adjust the offer
2. I believe Manny would pull more than $7 mil as a FA without ever worried about being guaranteed being a starter or not. He could easily DH in the AL and throw the defense numbers out the window.
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Post by Darryl Strawberry on Aug 8, 2006 9:50:10 GMT -5
But in defense of the Agent...A player is allowed to accept/reject an offer with incentives...I have had one of my players ask for a guarenteed starting spot. I think that is a very valid reason, which was in the Agents decision, to reject the offer. That must be taken into consideration. The money, I agree, is plenty fair. But if the player wants to be a Starter, he could choose to walk. Plus, I think he could get more money and a starting spot on a few teams out there in FA. Unfortunatly, I have no say...But I hope the others see those points and go the way of the agent. [glow=red,2,300]AND REMEMBER...This was COL 1ST OFFER!! We shouldn't even have this discussion right now until those other offers are made!![/glow] PS...I will not be attempting to sign Manny either, so I have no reason to want him to become a FA. PPS...This is one reason I HATE THIS RULE! I expect a fine is coming, this wass warned upon already |
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Post by Darryl Strawberry on Aug 8, 2006 10:17:36 GMT -5
no text
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Post by Jose Canseco on Aug 8, 2006 13:04:04 GMT -5
seeing how COL posted a long post here then edited to avoid a fine im expecting a fine on him as well(probably one on me for pointing this out but oh well if thats the case) |
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